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Hesmyfriend2
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« on: June 09, 2008, 10:52:09 am »
on gays and lesbians being in church? Do they have a part to play?
Can we accept them as they are? I'm not a lesbian but surely the
church is for all? What are your thoughts?
Sugar
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CanuckLynn
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« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2008, 09:37:09 am »
Hi Sugar!

Good question Sis!  I believe that our churches should welcome 'everyone' with open arms!  Jesus didn't turn anyone away, and He set this example for us to follow, right?  As believers however, we have a responsibility to everyone to not only set a good example for them to follow, but to teach them what is right and wrong in God's eyes. 

love,
Georgie
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« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2008, 09:39:10 am »
Good question Sugar,

What better place than church for homosexuals to learn that this practice is unacceptable in God's eyes. 1 Corinthians 6:_9-11 says clearly...

Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral not idolaters nor adulterers not male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slandereds nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, our were justified in the name ot the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

A pastor worth his salt will preach this to his congregation and cause the sinner to repent. You notice in these passages that Paul isn't just talking about homosexuality. He is making it clear we are not to lie, cheat, steal, or to commit adultery. This also applies to people that are living together without the covenant of marriage.

Paul also goes on to say in verse 18...Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God? Your are not your own; you're bought for a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

Recently at my mother-in-laws church they were faced with this problem. A lesbian was teaching one of their Sunday school classes. They lost a great deal of their congregation before the pastor finally removed her from this position of leadership. She is not allowed to teach any longer but she is still welcome in the church. As well she should be. Jesus never closes His door. He patiently waits for us to come to Him in repentance.

So to answer your question about if homosexuals have a part to play in our churches. My answer would have to be no because God forbids it. But do they have a right to attend, to fellowship with believers that lead them into the light then I say yes. What better place for them to learn the truth. I'm anxious to hear what everyone has to say on this subject.

love,
terri
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Lona211
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« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2008, 11:24:59 am »
Amen, Amen , Terri
I belive what the word says also, and thre is no way we can get around it but to repent . And yes, they should be allowed to attend a church, that is what it is for sinners and christains. Jesus died for the sinner, and they are sinners just like I was befor I repented of my sins,That is their choice of life style they live,    but it is not God's choice.They have the choice to choose to live for God or the devil, they can not serve to masters. So they have the choice like I did . God dose not want any to parish. But that is each ones desission, So I belive until they repent of the sin they are living they will not enter into the kingdom of God. His Law is the same today as it was back then.
I have been through this with my daughter, she lived with her husband for 27 years and they have a son, and he told them he was Gay ( the husband) and you never know how hard it is to find this out, mostly when it hits home, I thank God that  he gave me and my family the strength to go thru it with them, and let us beable to forgive the son-in law, but he knows we do not condone it and don't belive that way, and that we are praying God will open up his eyes and he will come back to the Lord, as he was saved at one time and attended church with his family. But he let the devil take him over and serving him now instead of God. But I still have Hope that he will repent of his sinful way he is living and come back to God befor he dies.
It is so sad to see so much of this going on.But there is always hope that God will open up their eyes and hearts to know that God dose not allowe this tye of living, He did not create them this way, It is there choice. Sorry if I sound Blunt, but I have to stand on God's word and what he says about it.And I pray that others will read what God says about it..
Thank Your Terri, its Gods word you gave . Amen !
 a sister in Christ, Leona
 
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Char4Jesus
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« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2008, 11:44:23 am »
I agree with all said here.   The church is for sinners to learn about God and to come to know Him.   It's for christians to grow also.  We all were sinners before we accepted Christ,  and we still sin as no man is perfect.  Only by the blood of Jesus are we washed clean,  and we need church to helps us understand and to learn.  Thank you so much for this post.  I pray that it will change lifes.

Charlene
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God Bless you and I love you
BaldEagle4Christ
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« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2008, 12:05:51 pm »
Here Suger,
Here is a Scripture Jesus going too this tax collector who was a sinner and see what he has too day after the Pharisees have too say after they comfronted Jesus.

Mathew9:9.As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector's booth. "Follow me," he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him.
10.While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples.
11.When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"
12.On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.
13.But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Luke 6:37(Niv) Do not judge,and you will not be Judged,and you will not be Judged,do not condemn,and you will not be condemn,forgive,and you will be forgiven

Suger we have too be very carefull in how we handle things and we have too go too God,and the sinners have too got too wanna change too.
Jesus never gave up on us,he died because he new we needed too be cleansed from our sins,and excepting Christ as our savior and he died for our sins,we must wanna change and walk right with the Lord.
So we must witness too them and pray they will change.
I hope this helps too as well as every one responses too.
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« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2008, 02:29:53 pm »
I agree with what is being said here. Yet there is a warning with this.....we need to protect ourselves from being drawn in to that lifestyle as well as our children. We do not want our children thinking the homosexual lifestyle is ok. So yes they have a right to attend church and learn about Jesus. They also have a right to choose which lifestyle they want. If they decide they want their homosexual lifestyle then we need to decide what is best for the church. We do not want to harm Gods children while trying to help the lost.
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« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2008, 09:53:07 am »

You make a very valid point Barbara. The church elders should keep an eye on the folks that have no intention of changing their lifestyles. Problem is...when do you draw a line in trying to reach them? What if one more Sunday service is going to be the one that finally opens their eyes. I imagine this is something that is discussed in every church in America.     

love,
terri
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WingzOfPrayerP
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« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2008, 02:33:17 pm »
That is true Terri. This is where prayer comes in. We need to seek God about this when it happens in our church and let Him guide us in what to do. I was reading 1Cor. 1-8 and verse 6 answers it for me...Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? This Paul wrote after chastising them for putting up with fornication in their church. In verses 8-13 Paul says we can witness to those outside but that we are not to keep company with them. We do not judge them that are without but God does. We do however judge them that are within and Paul says to put away from among yourself the wicked person.
I believe if someone is truly seeking God they give their lives to Him. The ones who can sit and listen to the worship and sermons Sunday after Sunday with no response to God is not seeking God. So we have to ask ourselves why they are there? Since they are not serving God then they are serving satan........and in time will cause problems in the church. While they are going to church they are continuing their lifestyle which God hates and it is not a testimony for God but for satan. Yes some get saved in church but on of the main purposes for church is the fellowshipping of the saints, the teaching of the saints and to worship God as well as to help equip the saints for reaching the lost. What fellowship hath light with darkness?
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« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2008, 06:43:01 pm »
Very good sister!! Are you sure you aren't a preacher?  laugh

One thing about Paul...he never minced words. How could he they came straight from God. You left out the chapter sis...lol  It's chapter 5. Took me a bit to find it. While there is no denying that God wants us to separate ourselves from sinful activity He doesn't ever tell us to quit trying to reach the lost. Just as strong as his words were here in 1 Corinthians, Paul eased up a bit in 2 Corinthians. He preached more about the forgiveness and comfort we are to give our brothers and sisters. He didn't waver on the words he spoke about fornicators in the church but he did tell us to forgive them if they truly repent.

My problem is this...How are we to reach the lost if we close doors. If we lock them out of our assembly. Are we to just give up because a sinner is sitting next to us in church. If we did none of us would be there. I know God's Word never changes. But is it possible that Paul was speaking to the Corinthians in their time and space. What I mean is, there are several times in the Bible where the scriptures apply to certain circumstances that no longer exist today. Am I making any sense?  Calling All Pastors!! lol  I'm afraid I'm confused over this issue. It's something that I hope to find the answer to.

Thanks Barb.. I learned a lot from you today.
love,
Terri
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« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2008, 07:55:22 pm »
Might this help?... Below is what I read in the study notes of my life application study Bible

The church must discipline flagrant sin among it's members - such sins, left unchecked, can polarize and paralyze a church.  The correction, however, should never be vengeful.  Instead, it should be given to help bring about a cure.  There was a specific sin in the church, but the Corinthian believers had refused to deal with it.  In this case (Corinthians 5), a man was having an affair with his mother (or step-mother), and the church members were trying to ignore the situation.  Paul was telling the church that it had a responsibility to maintain the standards of morality found in God's commandments.  God tells us not to judge others.  But He also tells us not to tolerate flagrant sin because leaving that sin undisciplined will have a dangerous influence on other believers (5:6)

To "hand this man over to Satan" means to exclude him from the fellowship of believers.  Without the spiritual support of Christians, this man would be left alone with his sin and Satan, and perhaps this emptiness would drive him to repentance.  "That the sinful nature may be destroyed" states the hope that the experience would bring him to God to destroy his sinful nature through repentance.  'Sinful nature' could mean his body or flesh.  Putting someone out of the church should be a last resort in disciplinary action.  It should not be done out of vengeance, but out of love, just as parents punish children to correct and restore them.  The church's role should be to help, not hurt, offenders, motivating them to repent of their sins and to return to the fellowship of the church.

Paul was writing to those who wanted to ignore this church problem.  They didn't realize that allowing public sin to exist in the church affects all it's members.  Paul doesn't expect anyone to be sinless - all believers struggle with sin daily.  Instead, he is speaking against those who deliberately sin, feel no guilt, and refuse to repent.  This kind of sin cannot be tolerated in the church because it affects others.  We have a responsibility to other believers.  Yeast makes bread dough rise.  A little bit affects the whole batch.  Blatant sins, left uncorrected, confuse and divide the congregation.  While believers should encourage, pray for, and build up one another, they must also be intolerant of sin that jeopardizes the spiritual health of the church.

Paul makes it clear that we should not disassociate ourselves from unbelievers (5:10-11) - otherwise, we could not carry out Christ's command to tell them about salvation.  But we are to distance ourselves from the person who claims to be a Christian, yet indulges in sins explicitly forbidden in Scripture and then rationalize his or her actions.  By rationalizing sin, a person harms others for whom Christ died and dims the image of God in himself or herself.  A church that includes such people is hardly fit to be the light of the world.  To do so would distort the picture of Christ it presents to the world.  Church leaders must be ready to correct, in love, for the sake of spiritual unity.

love,
Georgie
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« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2008, 08:01:56 pm »
A lot to think about for sure, but there are loads of people who are in
church with hidden sin and they are jsut as bad. Just cos the lesbian/gay
couple are noticeable from the outside that they sin, the others that have
hidden sin are just as bad, yet they stay unchallenged. To me the couple
are no worse than a person looking at porn etc, a sin is a sin regardless,
but can/do we throw them all out?
Sorry I'm rambling.
Sugar
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WingzOfPrayerP
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« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2008, 09:28:43 am »
Great teaching Georgie. Smiley One sin is not worse than another in Gods eyes. Yet the church is mainly for fellowshipping of saints. That is why the Bible says not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together. Usually a sinner comes to church on the invite of someone witnessing to them. The hope is when they see how God works with His children, they see others lives changed by the power of God and hear the teaching/preaching that they too will want to give their lives to God. We never give up on someone God has led us to witness to. Its just that we need to be cautious about the effect they have on other christians (especially the new ones) and on the children. It would be terrible to have a new christian led away from God.
We do not throw them out.......but with prayerful watching we minister to them while being careful to protect Gods children. I have been in churches where a sinner was able to cause dissention and doubt in folks......and a lot of Gods children were hurt. The sinner had no intention of serving God......but was used of satan to try to tear down what God had built. We need to walk in Gods wisdom and discernment regarding this.
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« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2008, 09:32:30 am »
Oh one further thought......its kind of like taking in a foster child. You know he needs help and love and you want to give it. At the same time you want to protect your children from any bad influences by the foster child. They can be a bad influence on your own children so you have to be careful that you don't lose your own children in helping this foster child. Same with Gods children. In helping a sinner you need to be careful of the influence he/she has on Gods own children.
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« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2008, 07:13:19 am »
Amen Georgie,Terrie and Barbra,
You all make so much sense and truly searched the word of God.Especially Georgie where Paul's rights too this one Church,knowing about this great sin that was lingering around.It really had hurt them.That is why Paul steppes up and wrote the letter,telling them, basically they better shape up or they can for
sure ship Out.

So my golly that is allot of reading and learing.
in Christ love,
Kenny
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« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2008, 08:35:39 am »
Barbara.. Smiley  That is a great assimilation using foster children as an example!  When we were foster parents, we were asked to take in a 5 year old boy.  My oh my, this child acted like he was a teenager with the wisdom of one.  He'd been abused, had parents who drank and did drugs, and many many other sordid things.  The consequences...initially, was that our son started to behave like this young boy!  I almost gave up, until counselling was offered to me to help me to deal with this young boy's actions.  After counselling and receiving ideas on how to correct his behavior, everything went smoothly!  This can be compared to the blatant sinners in our churches.  We can take them in, but they will need counselling for their behaviors!  It is our responsibility as Christians to teach, counsel, and set the best example for the newcomers to our churches.  It may not always work, however we need to do the best we can before we give up! 

love,
Georgie
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Life without God is like an unsharpened pencil- it has no point.

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« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2008, 02:37:02 pm »
Quote from: Hesmyfriend2 on June 11, 2008, 08:01:56 pm
A lot to think about for sure, but there are loads of people who are in
church with hidden sin and they are jsut as bad. Just cos the lesbian/gay
couple are noticeable from the outside that they sin, the others that have
hidden sin are just as bad, yet they stay unchallenged. To me the couple
are no worse than a person looking at porn etc, a sin is a sin regardless,
but can/do we throw them all out?
Sorry I'm rambling.
Sugar

I agree with you Sugar. We are all sinners. But...it's the outward sin that cause others to possibly stumble. Say for instance you are a chronic cusser. Every other word is a curse word. You of course are sinning. But if you start swearing during the service then all eyes are on you. Children have learned new words to add to their vocabulary. The church would not allow it and according to Paul's teaching...anything that outwardly (visibly) could cause the body of Christ to fall should not be allowed in the assembly.  Homosexuality, lust, drunkeness, slander, gossip and disorder, to name a few, are works of satan.  If we don't confront the ones that are showing their sins to us flagrently then we are accepting it. As I said, we are all sinners, but most of us don't mock God by inapropriate behavior in church.

I enjoyed this discussion. The most important thing is this Sugar...we can't change the undeniable Word of God. We can't dance around the scriptures and make them read like we want them to. Everything God has given us in His Word is unshakeable, unbreakable and taught to give us guidance and wisdom. As Georgie said we need to do our best with anyone that attends our church. Helping them to get victory over their sinful lifestyles before asking them to leave.

love,
terri
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"HE PERFORMS WONDERS THAT CANNOT BE FATHOMED, MIRACLES THAT CANNOT BE NUMBERED" 
Job 9:10
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« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2008, 04:40:28 pm »
  10 commandments we should and was told we must live by.but we all have broken one at some time in our lifes .but dose that condem us .?
no God said NOW AND BEFOR HE WHO BELIVE IN ME SHOULD HAVE EVER LASTING LIFE .love my childen all the same .I will not ask you to stray from me .NOR WILL I CAST YOU OUT . THERE IS NO JUDGEMENT OF THE 10 COMMANDMENTS...IT IS GODS WORD . AS I CAN SEE CHANGES THAT HAVE BEEN GONING ON IN OUR WORLD TODAY HAVE BEEN RESERCHED FROM BACK TO BIBLICAL STUDYS.        JUST MY WORDS OF LOOKING IN THIS.
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« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2008, 11:36:00 am »
I agree that sin is sin no matter how small or great it may seem, God's word tells us that. However do not forget that in God's timing our sins are brought to the light and have to be dealt with or depart from Him and his people. That happened to me in my marriage, since he chose to continue in that life style he finally left. Was it easy? NO, of course not! Does he know how great God's love is, YES! But he has made his choice for now. So... having said all that, I believe we are to welcome them in the church, love them as we would anyone, but not to be in leadership positions without counseling and accountability.
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« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2008, 08:15:06 pm »
Well I have a very short responce to this one If we run off or keep away all who Sin? then Who shall we help lead to Christ?..........Hum? the Preachers? hehehe love Markers.
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« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2009, 10:50:17 pm »
i would like to throw my opinion up here if i may. while i dont think homosexuals should be allowed places of leadership in churches, i disagree with being a homosexual is a choice. if we are all created to be straight, then how does one develope attractions for the same sex? a person cant change their handwriting or the way they walk or their fingerprint or footprint its in their dna, how then can they change there dna of being straight by going gay? that really doesnt make sense but i think people are born gay because everyone of us acts by the way we are designed. if that wasnt the case then how do people choose to be gay? a person really cant alter their dna so to say that being gay is a choice really dont fit cuz if God created
us to be straight by nature, nobody would truly develop feelings for same sex as we humans are programmed to act in certain ways.
God bless you!
In Christ's Love
Raul
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DaRvrnd
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« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2009, 08:09:35 pm »
Wow! Old thread! Anyway....

Someone wrote in about her friend and asked me the very question that Raul brought up: if homosexuals "are born that way" can they be "saved" and homosexuals at the same time?

I edited out the parts addressing the asker personally, but left the response intact:



Homosexuality has been made out, in our society, to be something "mystical" and different than everything else that the Word of God expressly says is sin. In consideration of the Word of God, however, it is the same as the sin of adultery or prostitution, for example. Would someone who is saved continue to cheat on his wife? No.

To make it clearer, the term "saved" really is not adequate to describe a child of God. Jesus did not say, "You must be saved!" He said, "You must be born again!" Being "saved" is a result of something else: being born of the Spirit of God. When the Word of God speaks of one being "saved," it is in consideration of God's wrath; this is what one is "saved" from. However, anyone who continues in sin is not "saved," for it is due to sin that God's wrath eventually comes:

Ephesians 5:5-7
"For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them."

To answer to your confusion even more: the thought that one is "born" a homosexual has really shaken up some in the church. They say, "If one is born that way than it cannot be sin"; however, everyone is born a sinner regardless of what their particular fleshly tendencies are. For example: was the man addicted to pornography born with this tendency? The world says so. But it does not make any difference for, once again, we must be born again. The Word of God says:

Romans 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
 
In essence, all are sinners and do not deserve to be of the Kingdom of God nor enter into; however, God's mercy, as found in Jesus Christ, allows for a man or a woman to make the choice to either repent or perish. When Jesus said, "Flesh gives birth to flesh and Spirit gives birth to spirit," when He was questioned about one being born again, He was saying that all men are born doomed as enemies of God, for sin (as the apostle Paul explained) is in the flesh. Flesh, as we know, cannot enter into the Kingdom of God:

1 Corinthians 15:50
I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

So the answer, as to whether your friend is saved, is simply, "No, she is not." Anyone who is saved from God's wrath has been born again and cannot go on sinning.

1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

In Christ,

K. Allen
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