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Women taking a role in Church and following their husbands lead

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Tara5684
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« on: July 02, 2009, 03:24:55 pm »

I was doing some studying about women taking a role in church and found something interestiing. In 1 Timothy verses 11-15 it states.....A woman should learn in quietness and full of submission, I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing-if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.(NIV)
In 1 Corinthians 14:33-35...For God is not a God of disorder but a God if peace. As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They shold not be allowed to speak, but must be in submision, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home;for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.(NIV)
It also says in 1 Peter 3:1-6...Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. Your beauty should not come from ourward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, It should be your inner self, the unfaded beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. For this is the way the holy woman of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They should be submissive to their own husbnds like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him master. Your are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear. (NIV)

After these three examples of how I should act in church and outside of church, I am led to believe that I should keep silent unless spoken to, I need to follow my husband and be submissive to his every need, and I should not be leading anything. So according to these verses, I am to keep quiet so I don't disgrace myself in church. I can't understand!!! I know the laws have changed and women are now allowed to speak, BUT all 3 of these verses come form the new testament and according to them, women are not suppose to be speaking OR leading services, let alone preaching the word. In no way shape or form have I ever been or ever will be abused by my husband and we both share the responsabilies of the household chorse...EVEN COOKING..LOL. So can someone please help me out. I feel that I have been told by the Lord to lead...as to what I don't know yet (but I am praying about it and have been for quite some time now)...but after reading these verses and many more, I am not sure. But I will continue to pray about it and seek the Lords advice on what to do.

Your Sister In Chirist,
Tara
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Ljclaire
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I Thessalonians 5:17 Pray without ceasing.


« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2009, 05:42:50 pm »

I have wrestled with this as you are for many years and I still have to wonder what a womans place is in the church.  We as women are to be obedient and share the word of God with others.  We are all supposed to be a witness of Him.  So many tell you that was for them back then.  I do not believe that it would be in the New testament if it was not for us today. 

The Lord has been working with me on this and the wearing of Jewelry in the church and being so fixed up, it is like when you raise your hands to praise God  you do not want others to be distracted by jewelry.  Anyways, I have stopped wearing jewelry because I want nothing to interrupt my worship or others.  I have been involved and talking to men and women in the prisons for the last 3 yrs.  I just know that I love the Lord and want to share his greatness, in Matthew the word tells us to visit the people in prisons.  I think that as God leads your heart what is right for you you should be obedient to how you spiritually are being led.

We are all supposed to share our testimonies.  The word says we are saved by the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony.  Proclaim Jesus to the lost and worship God, seek Him and He will reveal what He wants you to do.  God bless you

Still wondering, LOL

LJCLaire  Laurie
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Your sister in Christ,  Laurie
kje123
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« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2009, 06:21:47 pm »

Great question! I will be more than happy to discuss comparitive theology and how it relates to the migratory habits of the Western swallow during mild hurricane seasons.  crazy


Ah, another one of those touchy subjects that requires understanding. The above is simple by comparison. It isn't always an easy subject to talk about, but it is also one that is shied away from in churches far too often, and as such imperils the family of God. Well, offhand, I'd say the first step is to learn the difference between submissiveness and obedience. They are 2 very different words. My wife is submissive, but I guarantee you if I start barking orders, she ain't gonna be obedient. Second of all, your husband is the one held responsible for the course of the family. My wife calls submissiveness the art of ducking so God can hit me. One of the key misconceptions is that it is the husband's right to rule the house. Well, nothing could be further from actuality than this mindset. It is not his right, but his responsibility; one that cannot be tossed aside, even though unfortunately many men do abdicate this role. God will still judge them even if they are not an active part of the family. As far as in the church, ultimately there is no female or male in Christ. The first evangelists were a pair of women. There are roles women share in the church, and in some cases are uniquely qualified to lead.... IF they submit themselves to a male senior pastor. As the husband is responsible for the course in the family, the pastor is responsible for the part of the church family they serve. The reason for the male requirement for the pastor is how can a female pastor be held responsible to God if she is first trying to follow the lead of her husband? And if she isn't following the lead of her husband, how can she follow God's lead? God's going to hold someone accountable for each church body, so that person needs to be the right target. I actually wrote a couple of quick notes on these last year; so at the risk of being shot, drawn and quartered, and a few other equally pleasant things....

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December 1, 2008: The submissive wife.

This week, I’d like to focus on the family, both the nuclear and the spiritual. The goal here is not to fire up debate, but to help us grow. Why do I say I don’t want this to be a fiery debate? Because here are some of the most heated words in the Bible. Ephesians 5:22-24; “Wives, submit to your own husbands as to the Lord, for the husband is head of the wife as also Christ is head of the church. He is the Savior of the body. Now as the church submits to Christ, so wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Submit. There is one of the most loaded words in scripture. Many marriages and families have gotten into serious trouble over this word, and the reason why is they fail to understand the meaning of the word. Once you grasp what submission is about, you begin to realize it is about a position of both great responsibility and authority. It is a position of honor. It is not a position of slavery, but one of co-ownership. It is NOT obedience. Children are commanded to obey, wives to submit. Here’s an analogy that I hope will help.

Welcome to the Navy. You are now the Executive Officer (XO) aboard the USS Family. The captain has received the orders. He has some idea on how to carry them out, but there are other options he might not see. Therefore he talks with his XO (you) and it is the job of the XO to bring up other ideas and plan for contingencies. After a bit of discussion, the captain and XO usually agree on a course of action, and the best way to carry it out. On the ship, it usually falls to the XO to make sure the orders are carried out. Every once in a while, the captain and the XO disagree. The captain still gives the order. It is not the XO’s job in this case to push her plan, as this would be mutiny. It is the XO’s job to do the best to follow the captain’s orders, and make sure his orders are followed. Why? In case of a court-martial, it is the captain’s tail that is on the line, not yours.

Yes ladies, many times you are right while us husbands err. Occasionally, us men can be right, too. You see things and try to warn us, as is your duty. Do not stop in doing this. But once the captain gives the order, help him to the best of your ability. Submission is the art of ducking so God can smack your husband into shape. Remember, God holds the husband responsible for the course of the family, not you. By the way, if you didn’t like the XO comparison, here’s a verse for you. “She watches over the activities of her household and is never idle.” Proverbs 31:27a. This is part of the description of the ideal wife, as the men will find out tomorrow…


 
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And from a few days later... The Submissive Husband



And its time again for Q&A with… wait a second. Did you say the submissive husband?

Yes I did. Got your attention, didn’t it?

Phew. It was just an attention getter. So, you didn’t really mean it.

Yes I did. If you look right before the verse that talks about wives submitting, there is one that says  we are to submit to each other in the love of Christ. Wives and husbands are co-laborers in Christ, and therefore should submit to each other.

But I thought we were the leaders?

Yes, but in the example of Christ. Look at this example from Mark 10:45. “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve.”

But what happened to me being captain of the ship? You know, like the analogy you gave to the women? I am master of my domain, right?

You’ve never actually been captain of a ship, have you?  A captain follows orders from the Commander in Chief. Then the captain has to work with the XO to make sure everything happens. One of your jobs is to make sure the XO has everything she needs to do her job right.

It sounds like the XO actually is the one in charge?

Well, lets take a look at what a good XO is and does. First of all, your XO is trusted completely, and she rewards you with kindness. She acquires the uniforms, gets provisions, rises before the captain to operate the galley; she determines what is beneficial to the ship, and helps fund the ships operations; sometimes by cost control, sometimes by direct funding. She watches the ship at night while the captain rests, and helps other ships so that the entire navy is strong. She is responsible for conditions during inclement weather, and is full of wisdom. Seems to me like she runs a tight ship for you.

Do you really expect me to believe all that?

Its in Proverbs 31:10-31. I suggest you read it.

Well, what is my job then?

Well, your job is to make the best decisions possible. After all, you are actually the one in charge. Therefore you need to listen to the wisdom of your wife, err… XO. You will find you and her agree on a great many things. Also, the sailing will be a lot smoother if you work together. The trick is to make as many decisions as possible together.

So what happens if we don’t agree?

Well, you’re the captain.

Now you’re talking!

Captain goes down with the ship.

Err…..

There will be times when you and your wife don’t agree. The better analogy here is who’s handling the nuclear football. Imagine what would happen in a time of crisis and both the President and Vice President had their fingers on the trigger. There could be chaos if they don’t agree. There has to be one person with their finger on the trigger, and therefore responsible for the decisions. Remember, not pressing the trigger is a decision too, so choose well. Now the question is how you determine which way you will actually decide. In order to make the best decision possible, you should follow Christ’s example.

Sounds pretty vague. Do you have a more specific way?

How about while Jesus was praying to the Father in the Garden of Gethsemane. “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.” (Matthew 26:39) When it comes time to make a decision, you need to take yourself out of the picture and do what is best, first for the Kingdom, then for your family. You need to be ready to sacrifice yourself for your family. As found in Ephesians 5:25, “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her.”

So if I want to watch football and my wife wants to watch cooking…

You put up with Paula Dean and rub your wife’s feet during the show, yes. Jesus did wash the feet of His disciples. Anyway, you’ll learn more about your wife this way. Also, you’ll find she might start watching football with you. After all, a good wife wants to make her husband happy.  Remember Proverbs?

This doesn’t sound like the role I signed up for. So, if she does it all, and I just set the course and have only the final say on the orders, what reward is there for me?

Hey, the captain gets the glory, even though it is the crew that does the work. If everything runs smoothly on your ship, you get all the credit for it. But keep in mind. It is not your right to be captain of the ship; it is your responsibility. You will ultimately be held responsible for everything that happens in your family; for good or for naught. It is a responsibility that cannot be shed. Even if you abandon ship or turn over command to the XO (neither of which are Biblical) you will still ultimately be judged by the way the family turns out.  Your job is simply put, leadership; and it is leadership by example. Make yourself a servant to your family, and to the Kingdom work. Make decisions that are wise, and if sometimes need to be, sacrificial. Show your children how to live, and provide your wife with the tools and support she needs to help your ship run smooth. And most important; love your wife the way Jesus loved you. He loved you with an unconditional love so great He died for you no matter how long the list of shortcomings was.  Don’t look at your wife’s shortcomings, love her anyway completely and totally. And like Jesus helps us become the best we can be for His kingdom, we are to help our wives in that manner too.

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I hope these reposts help...

In His service
Brian
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« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2009, 10:49:15 am »

 Shocked  Wow Brian!!  I'm not sure if that helped, or just confused me more Undecided!  Just kidding, your response was wonderful!!  Thank you for taking the time to help clarify!  smitten
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Tara5684
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« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2009, 12:46:38 pm »

Thank you Brian and Laurie. Brian, the part about the execuative officer is what helped me to understand about the part where if it wasn't for the woman helping out around the house and helping in general, then the husband would just go out of control. Now...about the women taking a role in leading services or preaching, I still don't understand that. I go to a church that a woman is the preacher and she does a wonderful job. But after studying all of these verses, I don't understand what her role is suppose to be.
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« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2009, 03:32:48 pm »

Fair statement. I'll try to clarify. The husband is the spiritual leader of the family, therefore, the wife must "submit" (remember the difference) to his leadership in this area. The elder (senior pastor) of the church fills the role of the husband/father for a larger family, and with 1 Timothy 3:5, he must be first be responsible for his own house. The woman is not the one held responsible in her own house, and therefore not the church as elder. If the woman is an elder, how can she answer directly to God while she submits to the responsibility of her husband? When a church places a woman in the role of elder, like it or not, they have actually placed her husband in the role of elder; and he might not be qualified to do that role.

Now in regards to women having leadership roles in the church (be nice, I haven't written a will yet too funny) my belief from my study is that women can be effective leaders within the church without having to be the leader of the church. In our church, the worship pastors are a husband/wife team, we have a women's pastor, and a woman children's pastor. They are each gifted in their area and are the best qualified for what they do. But, in their ministry, they answer to the elder position, which in our case is mandatory that they be of the male persuasion. There has to be one person God holds responsible for how the church goes, and he's the bullseye. Another wonderful example is in para-church organizations where women have been able to help. There are both ministries for women as well as prayer/fellowship groups (like this one) where women serve through leadership quite well with a deep passion for the Lord. But, each of them answers to their pastor when the day is done.

Now, I'm sure one word I've used is bound to stir up some feelings, so allow me to explain. Pastor. Pastor simply means shepherd. Some people will fight over using that word in front of a woman. Our children's pastor does just as the word describes. She shepherds the children. She's responsible for the sheep in her care, but she answers to the elder in charge for the whole flock. If a church doesn't want to use that word to describe women in leadership roles, I certainly have no quarrel with that, as it helps clarify who is held responsible. The only spot where I draw the line is a woman being responsible for the whole flock. A woman can be shepherding within the church, she just can't be the shepherd for the church.

This will either help you or confuse the rest of us more.
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« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2009, 09:57:55 pm »

I Thank you Brian for providing me with this wonderful Information. Now I understand exactly what you are talking about.
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« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2009, 01:18:36 pm »

I sure hope so. I was getting confused as I was typing it.  too funny I realized as I was typing the response is a list of the women in Acts and throughout Paul's letters who are mentioned. Almost all listed had a great impact in the church, and one could even say Sapphira had an impact on the church too (if you're dying to do some research on giving). Some were teachers, and others led in a variety of ways. None were the leader of a church.
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